Salam to you Pak Yeh,

You said

1)The prescribed times of solat is Q11:114″Establish salata at the ends of the day and at the early night.” This means that we solat at sunrise, sunset, and early night ie 3 times a day.

Asar replied

There are two more verses you overlooked as at S17:78 “dulukish shamsi” is sun’s decline at noon because Arabic sunset in the Quran is mentioned in S18:86 “maghribish shamsi” so you missed S17:78 at noon as a time of salat and you also missed another obligatory time of salat that of late noon which is mentioned in S62:9-10 as business time and this is located as the middle time salat between sun’s decline at noon and time of sunset both these timings were determined by Allah in the Quran. And Allah in S2:238 commanded us to preserve all these mentioned 5 times at 11:114 (sunrise), 17:78 (noon) and 62:10 (middle or business time at late noon), at 11:114 (sunset) and at S11:114 (night). All these 5 timings are supported in S2:238 to be preserved daily “Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers and the Middle Prayer and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).” It can easily be seen that out of the 5 times S62:9-10 the time of business at late noon fit to be defined as the Middle prayer.

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Pak Yeh said

2)The Hadith Muslims say Q17:78 prescribes the Zuhur solat. Lets exanine it. Q17:78″Establish “salata” at /from the decline of the sun (from its meridian), UNTILL the dark night.” 2.1) This verse is not a “time of solat” verse but a “duration of the sunset solat” because of the word UNTILL and the word “declining of the sun”

Asar replied

You took the Arabic “ila” to mean “until” that is why it becomes ridiculous as nobody can do his salat all the way from the decline of the sun at noon until the darkness of the night but the Quran specify that salat time is specific at a certain point not a duration of time as stated here in S4:103 “set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.” So “ila” at S17:78 means when the sun’s decline towards (ila) the darkness of the night indicate the specific time to establish the salat.

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Pak Yeh said

2.2)The word “declining of the sun” means sunset. It can only mean Zuhur or Mid Day if you added to it in brackets (from its meridian). But the words”(from its meridian)” is not Allah’s words. Therefore it should never be included to change the meaning of Allah’s verse to include Zuhur as a solat. Addaing to the word of Allah is kufur (falsehood).

Asar replied

There is no need to put additional words noon there because “dulukish shamsi” can only mean sun’s decline at noon as sunset is described by another Arabic word in S18:86

“maghriba shamsi” meaning “sunset” and “matliaa shamsi” meaning “sunrise” at S18:90. This shows the Quran is complete by showing the three position of the sun at sunrise (S18:90), at noon when it decline (S17:78) and at sunset (S18:86)! By making “dulukish shami” equal “maghriba shamsi” to mean sunset you are falsifying the timing of noon to mean sunset and reducing the number of times of salat to three times instead of five times!

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Pak Yeh said

2.3) The word “salata” means “one /singular solat”, and one solat before the dark night is the sunset solat or Magrib that is suitable for the word “declining of the sun”. It Zuhur, Asar and Magrib is included in the verse then Allah would have said “salawata” the plural of solat. Therefore there is no Zuhur solat in this verse.

Asar replied

All the command to establish salat is at each specific single timing S11:114 mentioned three specific times (at two ends of the day which is at the point of sunrise and sunset and at night) while the S17:78 is at the point of sun’s decline at noon and at late noon where the verse at S62:9-10 showing business time (middle between sun’s decline at noon and sunset).And S2:238 supported all these five timing while making the business time being the middle salat time! However if you pray three times at sunrise, sunset and night  you will have problem to fit the time at S62:9-10 where the situational timing is shown as “call to prayer to leave of business and after prayer disperse through the land and seek Allah’s bounty” None of your three timings of salat fit into this time situation!  Unless you have a verse that says you can fix your own time?

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Pak Yeh said

3)The Hadith Muslims say Asar solat is the “middle solat” in Q2:238″Attend constantly to the prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truely obedient to Allah.” But Asar as a “middle” solat can only be proven if Zuhur solat was proven to exist in the Quran otherwise the sunset solat or Magrib solat is the “middle” or “Wusta” solat.Therefore there is no Asar solat in this verse of the Quran.

Asar replied

The middle salat at S2:238 is at the “business time” is at late noon not sunset as you perceived I have proven you there is noon salat  at S17:78 (dulukish shamsi is at sun’s decline at noon not sunset as Arabic word maghribish shami is sunset at S18:86 so how can you say “dulukish shamsi” is also sunset?) and at S11:114 (two ends of the day is fajar and maghrib  and night is  Ishaa) and there is sun’s decline at noon S17:78 and at late noon at Q62:9-10. Although most people interpreted it to be a weekly affairs but Allah is the One who fixed the timing and commanded to preserve it as a time also to be performed as the daily salat “Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers and the Middle Prayer” So it is clear there are five obligatory daily salat timings in the Quran sunrise (S11:114), sun’s decline at noon (S17:78), business time (middle time S62:9-10), sunset (S11:114) and night! (S11:114)

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Pak Yeh said

4)The hadith Muslims say that Q30:17-18 “Therefore glory be to Allah when you anter the times of the evening and when you enter into the times of the morning. And to him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and at mid-day.” implys Fajar,Magrib,Zuhur and Asar. But there is no word “salata” in the verse to proof that what allah implys is the solat. The words used is “subhana” and “hamdu” which is a tasbih or praising of Allah with the words “subhanallah’ and “Alhamdullillah”. Thus verse does not prescribe the solat. Therefore there is no Zuhur and Asar solat in this verse.

Asar replied

Yes I agreed the verse does not help to determine the time to establish the daily obligatory salat time and we can therefore skip that.

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Pak Yeh said

5)The hadith Muslims say that Q50:39-40 “So be patient over what we say and exalt Allah with praise of your Lord before the rising sun and before its setting. And in part of the night, exalt him and after prostration.”, implies the solat of Fajar,Zuhur,Asar Magrib and Isha. Again this verse does not have the word “salata”. The word used is “sabbih” and “hamdi” which is the tasbih or zikir by saying “Subhannallah” and “Alhamdullillah. Thus verse does not prescribe the solat as there is no word “salata” in it. Therefore there is no Zuhur anbd Asar solat. Therefore. there is no 5 solats in the Quran. There are only 3 solat a day in the Quran and only in one verse Q11:114 that prescribes solat times explisitly without any doubt and without any interpretation or interpolation using non Allah or Ulama’s words in brackets. Wa billahi taufic. Wa salamulaikum waramatullahi wabarakatu. May Allah invite us to His true Quran only Islam without any corruption from any other source.

Asar replied

I am not using S50:39-40 to support my argument of five salat times so you can skip that too and try to counter my argument on the other verses that I gave you as evidences of having five timings of prayer in the Quran. But since you are using only S11:114 to claim that there is only three salat in the Quran you should realize you will create contradiction. First if you claim your “middle salat” is at sunset it will show a time distortion because how can you claim “middle” when from one end at fajar salat to sunset (Middle) is about twelve hours but from sunset (middle salat) to your night or Ishaa salat takes only two hours. How do you explain the meaning of your “middle salat” with a distortion of time of 12 hours versus 2 hour?

On the contrary by having five times of salat the middle which is the “business time” S62:9-10 fit the name of being middle in term of timing because it is in the middle of four salat and it is located really middle in term of timing which is located at “exactly half way from sun’s decline at noon and sunset”. Unless you can find evidence to define your “middle salat” you have a big problem to solve praying only three times a day!

Asar